Forums - Specific Reasons of why Jugg IS top tier, no shit! (Cable/Jugg being one of them) Show all 33 posts from this thread on one page Forums (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/index.php) - Fighting Game Discussion (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=8) -- Specific Reasons of why Jugg IS top tier, no shit! (Cable/Jugg being one of them) (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=12718) Posted by Jin Rules! on 04:15:2001 02:56 AM: With the restructuring of the tiers, Jugg is being left out in the cold. Now I'm not gonna go on about how "I like him, he SHOULD be top tier". Not here friends. I was just experimenting with him in training for a few hours and have come to the conclusion that he outranks alot of the lower top tier (especially cyclops). reason 1-Cable/Jugg Jugg's Gamma assist (body slam) sets up the AHVB PERFECTLY! The hit stun time is alot longer then cyke's gene splice, the body slam has better range, and doesn't pop the guy up as fast or hard. Coupled with the fact that Jugg takes less damage and cable could cover him if the slam misses, this is a prime reason for Jugg to be top tier. Now some might say, "cyke is great as a battery also". Jugg's earthquakes build crazy meter, albeit being slightly slow.(possible AHVB target, but use him more for his assist). reason 2-Point+Glitch Glitched Jugg does crazy damage, we all know that. This being said, why doesn't this bump him up to top? Crazy damage combined with the fact that he can combo basically anything into the head crush should put him in the top tier. I actually just found out that a c.RH combos into the head crush. Also, Jugg's super armor and high stamina make him a great pick. I've tested this and found him to be much more top tier than you guys think. Especially the Cable/Jugg-gamma part, and Jugg is great on point also. What do you guys think? Posted by SinfestBoy on 04:15:2001 03:22 AM: the juggernaut punch sets up AHVB too. hell, Zangief on throw assit does too. whooptedoo. Juggy is too big, to slow, and has no sort of beam or projectile. he has no real traps. no chip. all he has is the glitch and Head crush. Posted by Jin Rules! on 04:15:2001 03:28 AM: A glitched wp,wp,Headcrush does more than 75% damage, which is not something to underestimate. The diff between the body slam and the jugg punch is that it is very hard to AHVB, where the punch is one big target. so Jugg is almost off screen until he hits the guy, which makes it a better assist. Posted by State of Nature on 04:15:2001 03:35 AM: Juggy is lots of fun, and undeniably strong. He can be used effectively, and has some neat tricks, but is just not in the top tier. He has a slow dash, no airdash, no teleport, no double jump, and no flight. This lack of mobility means he is trap bait. His best tactic is throwing and then Headcrush, but you need meter to do this, it's techable, and you have to be close. It's difficult for Juggy to get close because of his mobility issues. Headcrush does good damage, but you can't really use it to punish assists, since he has lag afterwards, and the active character can often evade it and punish you. Also, while a glitched juggy does hellacious damage, it's hard to find a safe time to power him up and then safely tag him out. On top of all this, Juggy's huge size makes him particularly susceptible to traps and long combos. I think AK has used a Juggy team in a tournament, I think it was Juggernaut/Sentinel/Blackheart, but there are very few usable Juggernaut teams. Juggernaut's problems lay in that he is susceptible to traps, can't deal with runaway, needs meter to be effective, and has trouble activating his glitch. He's fun to use against scrubs and intermediates, but I wouldn't use him in a tourney, nor would I call him top tier. Posted by Naslectronical on 04:15:2001 03:41 AM: quote: Originally posted by Jin Rules! With the restructuring of the tiers, Jugg is being left out in the cold. Now I'm not gonna go on about how "I like him, he SHOULD be top tier". Not here friends. I was just experimenting with him in training for a few hours and have come to the conclusion that he outranks alot of the lower top tier (especially cyclops). reason 1-Cable/Jugg Jugg's Gamma assist (body slam) sets up the AHVB PERFECTLY! The hit stun time is alot longer then cyke's gene splice, the body slam has better range, and doesn't pop the guy up as fast or hard. Coupled with the fact that Jugg takes less damage and cable could cover him if the slam misses, this is a prime reason for Jugg to be top tier. Now some might say, "cyke is great as a battery also". Jugg's earthquakes build crazy meter, albeit being slightly slow.(possible AHVB target, but use him more for his assist). reason 2-Point+Glitch Glitched Jugg does crazy damage, we all know that. This being said, why doesn't this bump him up to top? Crazy damage combined with the fact that he can combo basically anything into the head crush should put him in the top tier. I actually just found out that a c.RH combos into the head crush. Also, Jugg's super armor and high stamina make him a great pick. I've tested this and found him to be much more top tier than you guys think. Especially the Cable/Jugg-gamma part, and Jugg is great on point also. What do you guys think? Juggs isn't top tier. He cant build meter worth shit. Earthquakes might build it somewhat, but if that's what you have to rely on to build meter with Juggs, then, God help you. It's AHVB'able, and if if Mags, Storm, or Doom jumps over it, that's a chunk of your life gone from huge ass combo into Tempest, Lightning Storm, or Photon Array. He can't deal with keep away. Doom can rain photons from the skies on him all day long, Blackheart can drop demons all over him and chip with Inferno XX HOD, Headcrush can't punish a full screen MOB from Cyke, Sentinel can stomp his head in for free, Storm can run away from him all day, Mag can rush his ass down, and if Juggy blocks, Magneto can skip the launcher so he doesn't get headcrushed, Dhalsim can run from his all day, Spiral kill him for free with wall of swords trap, Cable owns his ass, his long laggy moves get punished by AHVB. His bulk absorbs everything you throw at him. He can't get away from a screen full of photons, demons, drones, swords, doom's rocks, and other shit. He can't deal with traps. He loses horrificly to Strider/Doom, Doom/Blackheart, Blackheart/Doom, Sentinel/Blackheart, and Spiral's Wall of Swords. Once one of these traps is started, there isn't jackshit Juggs can do about it. His moves have way too much lag and get his ass killed if you make one mistake. His regular attacks have enough lag to get AHVB'd or Inferno XX HOD or rusheddown by Mags and Storm. His assists are way to laggy and once again, get him killed. It takes too much effort to glitch him, tag him out, and tag him back in. First you've got to find an opening to power up. Then you've got to have two levels built up, one to variable counter Juggy out, another to variable counter him back in. This is a waste of meters. And even if you do get this off, there isn't a guarantee that you'll get to headcrush someone. I would put Rogue in the top tier before I put Juggernaut in the top tier. (I don't think she is by the way, just proving my point) Posted by Jin Rules! on 04:15:2001 03:41 AM: Points well taken state, but I'm looking into something with spiral on the safe glitching bit. Where I agree that he is no where near someone like Spiral/storm/cable/sentiniel/magneto, I just think that he beats out alot of the lower tiered peeps. Although a super jump into a HK body slam gets him pretty high... Posted by Naslectronical on 04:15:2001 03:46 AM: Correction, it takes 3 meters for a successful glitch.Once to variable counter him in, one to variable counter him out, and another for him to headcrush his opponent. And if you only had two, then you've got your work cut out for you, because Juggs builds meter slower than a mothafucka. Posted by on 04:15:2001 04:31 AM: Glitched Juggy is like, the most damaging character in the game. A FP Earthquake into a Headcrush does a TON of damage! He can cancel his standing RH or FP into a Headcrush....even a deep jumping RH, standing RH into a Headcrush depending on the character. His Bodypress is great to do on Cable players who expect you to land into their HVB after a super jump. Maaaan.....Juggy is the BEST! Posted by SinfestBoy on 04:15:2001 04:47 AM: Go play juggy against a trap team. you will change your mind sooooo fast. he cant get out of any traps. anythign with BH kills him dead. Posted by Lord Doom on 04:15:2001 04:53 AM: Jugg will get killed for free against Spiral, Doom, a good Magneto, Cyclops, Cable, Sentinel, Storm and Cable. He has a chance against a Strider since he is so weak and for the most part Strider has to attack Juggernaut, but thats about it. Posted by tempest on 04:15:2001 04:59 AM: he has no chance againest spiral, doom, or storm or rest of the top tiers his 2d tier though but long ways from top tier .peace Posted by on 04:15:2001 05:04 AM: Of COURSE he gets killed easy with traps...I myself already learned that...but he still ownz...and DON'T try to change my mind...sides, almost anyone can get killed easy with traps. Glitched Juggy's Headcrush is our best friend...depending on the trap, you feel so good when you manage to avoid it and land the Headcrush on 2/3 characters at once. Yes indeed... Posted by Jin Rules! on 04:15:2001 05:18 AM: quote: Originally posted by Lord Doom Jugg will get killed for free against Spiral, Doom, a good Magneto, Cyclops, Cable, Sentinel, Storm and Cable. He has a chance against a Strider since he is so weak and for the most part Strider has to attack Juggernaut, but thats about it. Enlighten me on how Jugg loses to Cyke? Jugg could pushblock, superjumpxxbody slam to get out of a few traps. But like Geo G2 said, who DOESN'T get owned by traps? A Cable/Jugg/Ken could get out of a few with the AAA, but having Ken on there instead of someone like Spiral or Sentinal hurts the team. Even so, Jugg still makes a great partner to Cable and works great on point. Posted by AMEnoMURAKUMO on 04:15:2001 06:17 AM: i cant believe nobody's mentioned the fact that the bb hood/juggy/hulk team has the quickest THC in the game...not only the quickest but takes up a SHIT LOADDA DAMAGE!!! Posted by Juggrknott on 04:15:2001 07:09 AM: Speaking as somebody who plays Juggernaut and likes him... You *can* get him glitched up without burning a lot of meter or causing a teammate a lot of damage. Just start him, glitch him and tag Sentinel in for him before the opponent gets 2 bars. Sent may get bruised, but it will be worth it. Glitched Headcrush owns from half-screen in on the ground. Unfortunately, this leaves full-screen and the air, both of which he doesn't deal with too well. Glitched Juggernaut Punch assists work well on the cross-up, and are safer that way too. Quick Headcrush uses/cancels can make him good rushdown punishment, but he really doesn't have jackshit for runaway or traps. It's a real problem for him. In serious play, there are a lot of characters who bring more to the table with less weaknesses. Still fun though, and still undeniably strong. -Jugg Posted by Lord Doom on 04:15:2001 07:15 AM: Cyke can continually jumping Roundhouses to build meter. And the only combo he really needs is his cyclone kick into the Super Optic Blast. Put Doom or Sentinel with him and Juggernaut would have a hard time fighting him. Posted by David L on 04:15:2001 07:19 AM: Jugg is one of my tournament characters with magneto/storm. His quake assist is very very good for rush down characters. Also his quake assist is a very good combo starter for magneto/storm. Also doing the tempest super then canceling into storm's ice super then canceling into jugg's super does 100% damage. it works great Posted by NJzFinest on 04:15:2001 07:32 AM: his lagtime really kicks him out of the top tiers. headcrush, juggy punch, bodyslam, normal fierce and roundhouse moves all have serious recoverytime. his earthquake punch can be jumped over and punished by any character. his glitch has ups and downs. by performing his glitch you become 50% stronger. once you powerup you cant attack or you will have to restart the glitch. when people see you glowing red they will wait to take out whoever comes in. this will probably result in have a lifebar missing which is really not worth the trouble. all the top tiers have draining ability also. juggy doesnt do that too well. these are some reasons why he shouldnt be a top tier. Posted by David L on 04:15:2001 07:36 AM: If anyone goes to the shgl tourny and see a guy playing magneto/storm/jugg w/ win streaks that will be me =) Posted by NJzFinest on 04:15:2001 08:06 AM: you put juggy in your tournament play, DavidL? Posted by Fozzy on 04:15:2001 08:12 AM: Juggernaut.. too slow for me Posted by DarthSalamander on 04:15:2001 08:12 AM: Viscant had a glicthes Juggs somewhere on the lower half of 2nd tier, and I think that is where he will stay. However, never underestimate the ability of Juggs to hit you with a HeadCrush. So many things are simply not safe against him. His assist is of course good as hell, and can really give a lot tactics problems. Maybe he will become more popular again, like CapCom has. Posted by NJzFinest on 04:15:2001 08:15 AM: just dont miss with the headcrush and he'll be ok. Posted by Lord Doom on 04:15:2001 04:37 PM: I really do love to play with Juggernaut but he is so slow and pretty much dependent on hitting you with a super that has super lag time. One of my favorite teams to mess around with is Omega Red, Gambit, and Juggernaut. I can win with them until I hit someone with a "top-tier" charcter based team i.e. Doom, Cable, and Spiral specifically. Posted by Unreallystic on 04:15:2001 06:40 PM: juggs teir two, yes. Teir one, no. The only reason a big person should be top tier is if they have hella mobility and trapping ability. Sentinel and Blackheart can be there, Juggs is a no show. The lack of mobility alone kills him. Pretty much a well played character in the top teir can take Juggernaut apart. Storm vs Juggernaut - Storm can build meter and chip him all day Magneto vs Juggernaut - again build meter all day, then wait for mistake (or cause them with speed). just don't whiff any moves with MAgneto or he dies quickly Blackheart vs Juggernaut - Blackheart stays in the air all day, Juggs can do very little about it Cable vs Juggernaut - if juggernaut so much as whiffs a jab, he instantly dies or comes pretty damn close Cyclops vs Juggernaut - See storm only quicker level building Dhalsim (depends on tiering view) vs Juggernaut - possible for Juggernaut to win, actually this goes to Juggernaut, unless Dhalsimn can safely get in one pixle of damge...then it is super jump, aird dash up teleport air dash up etc until time runs out Sentinel vs Juggernaut - Can go toe to toe with Juggs, and has trapping power, throw in the fact that lack of mobility hurts Juggs and his size makes him more succestible to Sentinel combos. If Juggg misses anything prepare for 5x drone fleet combos, or air combos (ouch) Iron Man (again depends on teiring) vs Juggernaut - Ironman can pick Juggs apart with bombos, and "entirely too damn many" setups to infinite I might be forgetting some character, but in general Juggs just doesn't match up well against anytop tier, and how can you be top teir if you can't beat anyone up there except possibly dhalsim? Tryue this game is based on assist, but more than likley the asssit you would be using are characters from the top teir anyway! Posted by on 04:15:2001 07:24 PM: Lag time? Ha....the fact that it's quick, damaging and travels like the whole screen is a huge plus. Playing against a Charlie or Guile player...when they throw a Sonic Boom, perform the Headcrush to go right through it AND them. Reckless? Hell naw.....same goes for most projectile characters. If your worried about lag, then do the JP Juggy Punch more often than the FP one. Team Juggy with Strider and use him for the glitched Juggy Punch assist while you do the Ame No Murakumo. Need more damage? Cancel the Headcrush into the Ragnarok. Do Earthquakes often. From a far distance, if someone jumps over it, you can either do a Juggy Punch (Which probably will be blocked), Juggy Headcrush (Which probably will be blocked)....or you can just surprise them with a Bodypress. Chances are...they are gonna attempt a rushdown, projectile or hyper combo projectile on you...and with the right timing, the Press can go over it and land decent damage. It was easier to do air combos with Juggy in MSH...I'll admit that. Juggy shouldn't be used at all for combos....Strider should. Posted by BrazilionBH on 04:15:2001 07:59 PM: i wouldnt goto the exstent of calling him a better assist than ctke but he is a very good assist... Posted by Pimpwitagun on 04:18:2001 10:10 AM: what is a glitched juggernaut? Does that just mean he's croteck powered uped (whatevs!)? or is this a "real" glitch. How do u do it. And yes, his super is dangerous, but i have yet to sweat at all playing against him with even someone like akuma (who dies like a fly against his super). Just fireball in air all day and super in air, repeat. Too bad his normal head crush can be stopped by lots of characters.... suprising even t.bonnes projectile assist stops his big ass. yeah, and one last thing.... capcom got his power ratio all wrong, everyone knows that in marvel comics, Hulk is THE most powerful character (juggie would get his ass handed to him). Don't ask me how i know this (used to collect marvel cards/comics lol) Posted by CykoClops on 04:18:2001 10:55 AM: Juggy is too slow and big to be top tier simple as that. Sentinel and Blackheart are two big and slow top tier characters, but they got range attacks like rocket punch and inferno. juggy's best range attack of earthquake is as slow as a snail walking uphill. Posted by DarthSalamander on 04:18:2001 11:36 AM: quote: Originally posted by GeoG2 Juggy shouldn't be used at all for combos....Strider should. Strider should be used for chipping traps. Posted by Iceman on 04:18:2001 02:26 PM: I just wanted to clearify some myths in this post. #1: Who gets owned by traps? Everybody, EXCEPT TOP TIER CHARACTERS! When is the last time you saw a top tier character (being used by someone with half a clue) have an assist and get totally locked down (Spiral/Sabretooth on Doom, Cable, BH, Cyclops and Sent doesn't count, as impressive as it is). #2: Sentinel and Blackheart are slow? Sentinel walks slow, and his normals are slow, but his dash and flight are VERY fast. When is the last time a Sentinel walked up to you on purpose? Blackheart walks and dashes slow, but has about the 4th fastest air dash (Behind Mag, Storm and Sim). Blackheart has some of the fastest and best jab/shorts in the game. #3: Juggy Head Crush does 98-99% damage (mashed for 8-hits) on a character of Cable (average) stamina. Take this into consideration. You can always "trade" characters if your opponent mis-uses an assist (what's more valuable, their number #1 assist, or Juggy when you have Sent/BH, Mag/Storm, etc. left). #4: Juggy has a good guard break (but I think you can escape by taking the hit, I'm not 100% sure). Jumping HK into Head Crush. #5: Juggy vs. Cyclops. Clops can super jump and build meter for free (unless Juggy has BH). Should Juggy try a "splash" and miss, Clops gets a free super on his slow ass. Should he get hit. So what, it wasn't a Head Crush. Clops can make that up with about 3 supers of chipping. On the ground, Gene Splice xx SOB that splash In theory all this Juggy stuff sounds great. But you still have to get close enough to land a jab, or else you are just having to wait until your opponent makes a mistake. You'll be waiting til you die against a careful opponent. Posted by Hyuga on 04:18:2001 02:54 PM: One thing, if jugg ever misses a standing fierce or whatever and the opponent is dumb enough to try to rush you or beam shoot at you afterwards, you can cancel into the headcrush. Therefore you shouldn't have to worry about his lag, but no ahvb. Also can someone tell me what he can and can't go through with his headcrush? Posted by Mister Fixer on 04:18:2001 04:25 PM: The Jaegermeister is one of my favorite characters... I prefer to use him on a Cable/Storm team. Storm Variable type eats people in the air, and lets just face it folks... Powered-up mashed Juggy Headcrush does 147 damage on Cable, and can be comboed from his throw, and you can add a Juggy Punch to the end after the HC if you want to, for those very annoying high-stamina characters. And, just for fun, you can always do his ridiculously damaging 10-hit air-combo for about 75%. Storm + Dash-type Juggy is very fun, especially since you can dash above anyone who tries to retaliate against you large helpful friend then Lightening Storm them. Do these fun facts make Juggy top tier? Not really. Can you kill anyone in the game with powered-up headcrushxxjuggy punch? Yes. Can you kill anyone in the game with AHVBx3? Nope. All times are GMT. The time now is 01:09 AM. Show all 33 posts from this thread on one page Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.4 Copyright © Jelsoft Enterprises Limited 2000, 2001.